Russia- Ukraine (Part 2)

Some of the groups fighting Putin might be potentially as bad, or worse. Of course many would be a lot better.

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So long as they stop the war I don’t care, even navalnhy is a bit dodgy

USA :us_outlying_islands:

:speak_no_evil:

This might not go down well!

What’s not clear? It’s clearly about the issue of escalation. And nothing else. How otherwise could that be interpreted?
Main battle tanks from US and especially from Germany is escalation (I agree with it btw, just to offset the focus on that).
That being done, people now saw “troops”, which would clearly be further escalation. And therefore my point. Main attack warplanes, and so on.
All pretty clear no? Nobody has actually responded to debate about the escalation question.

Anyway, I think Europe and NATO have to show Russia it’s not worth escalating but as ever it’ll go right to the wire, and something will happen to send it over the wire. Or some grouping in Russia gets rid of Putin.

Cue usual claims & debate about who’s missile and how it went off-course

Look, i just don’t think what you were saying exactly was clear, seems like you were criticizing support at all, two other people took you up wrong, so maybe I’m not making it up.

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It offered a question. More escalation or what? And what will be the outcome? It certainly said nothing to indicate stopping of support, and nothing I’ve posted before ever on this thread said or indicated about not supporting Ukraine, not arming them etc.
Therefore the interpretation taken from it is clearly just looking for any excuse to go for the “can’t support Putin” debate-silencing approach. Cue “Can’t debate murdering and raping women and kids” comments…

Peace talks aren’t possible as Russia won’t agree to withdraw out of the Donbas . So either it’s a never ending war that ends a decade or the West arms the Ukraine sufficiently for Russia to give up

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Ukraine is only in the position its in now because of foreign kit and the stones of the soldiers and people defending it. There has been numerous escalations already in this conflict and while many people have/had reservations about worst case scenarios that eventuality seems all the more unlikely as Russia has seen so many of its red lines broken.

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Pretty much how I see it. But I don’t see escalation to official troops on the ground necessarily being a good idea as part of that. Russia knows it’ll happen anyway if they try to advance further.

I agree. But I do question the level of troops on the ground etc unless Russia makes more advances.
The crux will come if it makes some advances, and is holding parts of Ukraine more indefinitely.

And Putin wants further escalation. He will know he can’t win or gain more at this stage. He wants it to go to a level that more justifies his invasion/ongoing operation.

Some people believe further escalation should already have happened to end the invasion. It remains a major point of debate and so the current scenario brings it into focus again.

Nothing is certain but i think that’s off the table now. His army have taken huge losses with a big hand from NATO kit much to their own embarrassment. The idea of Russia continuing to bombard civilian targets under a presumption that the west is out to help Ukraine was starting to look tenuous and more like war games. I don’t see troops getting involved unless there is a coup in Russia and that doesnt look likely.

If there’s a coup then the war will end, almost certainly.

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Curious polling

Not really given east Germany was under Russian control for so long

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